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Author Topic: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?  (Read 1877 times)

wintersunproject

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TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« on: November 24, 2012, 12:52:26 pm »
The weakest part of this marvellous drum machine are the TR808 & TR909 engines.
For a company like Arturia, i would have thought they would have been able to nail this easily.
The problem is, good REAL samples wipe the floor with them.
Theres not many of the sounds in either kit that come close to the original which is very disappointing.
Weakest areas being rim shots on both 808 & 909 and and the cowbell 808.
Especially when Novations drum station sounds better which is some 16 years old V/A technology !!
The small polish company D16 have managed a near perfect emulation with their Drumazon and Nepheton.
Come on guys sort this out, its crucial.. virtual analog emulation is your area of expertise, and im frankly
amazed you havent got this side of it nailed.
Im sure there will be loads on here happy with it, but im not.
Im using high quality samples to sub the sounds, which isnt really what i bargained for.
will there be any work done on improving the emulations ? Maybe adding a few more of the authentic tone shaping controls like
on the original machines ?

Thanks for a great product though, absolutely demolishes maschine, which i only had for a month, detested it !

Chris
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:06:37 pm by wintersunproject »

punkdSICO

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 07:59:21 pm »
Hi Chris

I just had to remind myself what these kits sound like as I have never used them within Spark.  I appreciate what you are saying: as 808 and 909 emulations, they are not very accurate.

However, I don’t feel as concerned about this as you.  If I want a really authentic 808 or 909 sound, I would turn to samples not an emulation.  If I was really bothered, I would buy the original hardware  :)

What you have to remember about Spark is that it is not an emulator of anything.  Rather, it is units from their extensive modular components featuring their True Analog Emulation (TAE) bolted together into preset configurations, tailored for drum sounds.  Sure, they have tried to present 909 kits but, as far as I know, they were not specifically designed to be 909 emulations.

Maybe they should have just supplied 808/909 samples – this would have given more authenticity but far less synthesis control.

The D16 Drumazon comparison is not a fair comparison as Drumazon was designed from the ground up to be what it is: a 808/909 emulation.  Given Arturia’s track record of emulating old analogue kit, if Spark had intentionally started out as a 808/909 emulation, I think it is likely that the result would have been as close as humanly possible to the originals..

Interesting thread..

Ta,

Paul
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg

punkdSICO

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 08:22:12 pm »
Hi Chris – separate point so, Im putting in a new reply.

Question:So, if Spark is not a direct 808/909/etc emulation, why have they stated this all over their marketing?

Answer:
Well, for me, Im not bothered about these claims.  The claims are obviously led by marketing and there are plenty of audio samples on their site to demonstrate the accuracy of these claims to potential buyers.  If the listener is bothered, they have the option to buy something like Drumazon (as you point out).

But this is really missing the point….

Spark features (by far!) the best sounding analogue emulation on the market..  Worst case and you might find another emulator out there that sounds pretty much as good.

However, you now throw in the Physical Modelling engine and any potential competitors are left lagging.

You now throw in the Sample engine with its unique and complex sample synthesis; now the competition just gets embarrassing!! (in Spark’s favour, obviously..)

If you pick up Spark looking for ANOTHER 808/909 emulator (yawn  ???) you WILL be disappointed.  That’s not to say that you could not use Spark for something 909-esque, taking the original sound into completely new territories, especially if compliment the kits with a few samples for sounds that are so readily identifiable (clap / rim).

If you pick up Spark as a multi-engine, drum synthesiser, you will go to bed every night with a smile on your face  :D

Paul
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg

wintersunproject

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 09:55:21 pm »
thanks for you reply, i appreciate it..
yep, well i agree with all that to a point, but if your led to believe your getting a tr909 and tr808 with graphics to boot, it should sound like one.
I cant think of a single drum machine emulation in the rest of the whole set that isnt bang on, so it IS like i said, disappointing.
like ive already said im using samples, but the control over them is limited.
I still reckon they could have emulated 10 similar drum machine circuits without a massive amount of resources, afterall its not the arp2600.
On a last point the notion of me re-buying  a proper TR909 again and Tr808 for that matter are not financially viable thesedays, but i have been fortunate to have both in the past. For me personally, getting the small things right makes a huge difference. And it would have been great for all those younger producers out there to have an on tap resource for near bang on replication of two of the most important drum machines in dance music period..
You have to remember one of the biggest draws for the 808 and 909 was its interface, Spark is the nearest thing to a TR, so its not ALL about the sounds.. Which is why i wont be using the D16's anytime soon. But if they could get the sounds right, i would be cock-a-hoop.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 10:00:23 pm by wintersunproject »

wintersunproject

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 07:45:21 pm »
Ive got my hands on a jomox airbase, so that all the analog drum sounds covered, will control from the spark.
Shame though...

punkdSICO

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 09:49:50 pm »
Ive got my hands on a jomox airbase, so that all the analog drum sounds covered, will control from the spark.
Shame though...
Hi again.

Funny but: Ive been a Jomox fan for ever..  Started with a xBase09, then Airbase, then xBase 999.  They are incredible machines – I am a complete analogue drum FREAK and generally speaking, I detest samples for drums!!

So, I got Spark knowing that I don’t need Maschine + Spark + 999; see how they all sit together and then sell 1, ideally 2..

To my surprise (horror), the easy one to let go is my 999  .  Spark is so completely analogue sounding to me, I don’t need the 999.

I tend to make drum sounds the same way I make synth sounds: 10% conscious effort, 90% accident.  To my delight, Spark has this uniquely analogue ability to get wonderfully musical results when you push it hard and out of the comfort zones.  I did not imagine anything digital could do this until I got Spark..

But yeah, the Airbase is a great product.  When it comes to searching for sounds, the Airbase is actually significantly better than the 888 and 999.

Have fun.

Paul
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg

mpc60champ

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 06:19:54 am »
Spark to me is like a Virtual Machinedrum with 24bit sample playback.

Even though the Roland TR808 and TR909 aren't exact replicas, I still tend to push some crazy sound for each box in spark. Elektron machinedrum is the same idea of pushing a digital source into another realm. I have heard how well machinedrum players can tweak a digital Roland TR emulation and it amazes me everytime.

The spark emulations may not be the best, but it motivates you into making sequences and songs in such a fast pace. It still beats a lot of the other drum machine sample libraries though.

Schrage Musik

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2012, 11:28:23 pm »
Serious question - NOT a criticism: WHY is emulation of this old kit so important? I've spent most of my life fighting for new stuff (sound, music, anything) so am a little disheartened when people complain that a new piece of kit is unable to sound like an old piece of kit - especially when the sound required is so..... let's be fair...... FLAT and uninteresting.

So, perhaps it was a criticism after all. But a friendly one.  ;D

masterhiggins

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2012, 10:41:14 pm »
Try bypassing the dynamics/fx section and roll the filters up wide open. It sounds a lot more natural and 808/909ish to me. The compression and filters soften the transients and makes it sound more dull, I've noticed. If you want a filter, then try running them through the Drop. Analogue heaven. :)

Sparkem

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2013, 11:02:52 pm »
IMO they need to license the sounds from Transistor Revolution by Wave Alchemy, their Kontakt 808/909 kits absolutley nail the 808/909, every parameter is present and tuneable, I'd love to see that product ported to Spark, even as an add-on...

And I agree with the Spark 808/909 comment, it misses the spot for me too...sadly :(
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 11:04:26 pm by Sparkem »

kcearl

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2013, 11:40:07 pm »
Serious question - NOT a criticism: WHY is emulation of this old kit so important? I've spent most of my life fighting for new stuff (sound, music, anything) so am a little disheartened when people complain that a new piece of kit is unable to sound like an old piece of kit - especially when the sound required is so..... let's be fair...... FLAT and uninteresting.

So, perhaps it was a criticism after all. But a friendly one.  ;D

well Id say its important because they are the two most important drum machines ever created for electronic music imo

to be honest I just bought spark to host samples and for vintage kits...I have maschine and all its expansions and I find it all a little too much sometimes. I just want drums...although I have samples i wouldve liked a synth engine two tweak on these two, they are a little disappointing...

mpc60champ

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 12:59:52 am »
Which sounds are off? I am satisfied with the kicks and snares. What else am I missing?

kcearl

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 02:45:15 am »
they dont sound like either imho

my R8M's cards sound way more authentic...


not that they sound bad, just not like the real thing...especially the claps

mpc60champ

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 05:25:14 am »
Well if its off then a few of us should make a request for the next versions to have better emulation compared to D16 and Roland expansion cards, and of course the real thing.

punkdSICO

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Re: TR808 & TR909 Emulations ?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2013, 01:57:59 pm »
Hi - the R8M uses samples so that is not really a good comparison.  Sure, Arturia could release some sample based 808/909 kits, but the current 808/909 kits are synthesised.

Btw, if you want 808/909 sample based kits for Spark, “Terrym” has already uploaded these in the Preset Zone.

Thanks,

Paul
London
www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7
Here’s the video:  www.youtu.be/Zl0PTZKy7fg

 

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