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Author Topic: Origin KB as MIDI controller  (Read 1091 times)

JacksonP

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Origin KB as MIDI controller
« on: July 04, 2013, 10:50:29 am »
Hi all!

Origin KB users: have you tried your Origin as mother keyboard / MIDI controller? Well, I tried and it was little confusing. I had to use MIDI Monitor (Mac OSX app) to see what is happening:

First, if Origin's keyboard mode is set to LOCAL ON you'll soon have hanging notes but this seems to be quite strange. If I only had Zone A active I did not get hanging notes (=missing note off messages). Also combinations like (B+C, C+D, B+D or B+C+D) did not cause them . BUT if I had Zone A +  B, C or D active those hanging notes appear. So somehow Zone A is reason for hanging notes. What MIDI Channels those Zones have seems not to have effect to this issue. For example when having B+C+D active they can have all same midi channel or all different channel and no hanging notes.

EDIT: tried with another Origin multipreset and NO hanging notes with any combination of Zones. Very strange indeed... And not very liable controller if sometimes you'll have them and sometimes not. This should be investigated IMO...

Second, when turning modulation wheel value increase from 0 to 127 is not normal. It in fact increases two values one after another. MIDI monitor says that first is "Modulation wheel (coarse)" and second is "Modulation wheel (fine)". Is this some new way of doing it or what? Anyway this makes Origin KB little problematic when controlling other MIDI hardware (for example my Virus).

NEW EDIT: In fact I can get hanging notes with just Zone A active and also LOCAL OFF, so unfortunately I have to conclude that Origin KB's (or at least my units) MIDI out function is very unreliable. I also tried it without iConnect-midibox in the middle. I got hanging notes when just sending MIDI out from Origin KB to Virus.

Any ideas? Philippe? Is this a "feature" or is my unit malfunctioning? To be honest I don't know which case is more tolerable, cause even thinking about one more repair process would be a nightmare...

thx
P
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 02:33:06 pm by JacksonP »

Philippe

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 12:02:47 pm »
It's not a hardware problem.

I'd think it's a bug in the part of the firmware that routs the midi event from the internal keyboard to the outside world.

If you set the zone so that these midi events are sent to both Origin and your virus, do you have stuck notes on both synth?

Thx
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 12:19:39 pm by Philippe »
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JacksonP

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2013, 04:16:53 pm »
Hi Philippe ja thanks for your reply!

I am not home until thursday so I can't fully answer your question. But do you mean the case when same time playing both Virus and Origin (one or more zones)? If you meant this, I am 99% sure that Origin plays well, no stuck notes. So the problem is outgoing MIDI. In MIDI Monitor app I could see that there was no note off message and this was the cause of stuck notes (if I remember correct  ;) )

How about my other question about modulation wheel messages? This was another issue to question Origin KBs usefulness as a MIDI controller... Same thing is in fact with ribbon controller, it's not sending CC with simply increasing/decreasing values but similarly two messages one after another.

(These are little difficult things to explain. If possible, connect your KB to MIDI Monitor or similar app and you'll see clearly what's happening...)

Cheers,
P
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 04:23:25 pm by JacksonP »

Philippe

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2013, 05:52:19 pm »
Hi Philippe ja thanks for your reply!

I am not home until thursday so I can't fully answer your question. But do you mean the case when same time playing both Virus and Origin (one or more zones)? If you meant this, I am 99% sure that Origin plays well, no stuck notes. So the problem is outgoing MIDI. In MIDI Monitor app I could see that there was no note off message and this was the cause of stuck notes (if I remember correct  ;) )

Ok, I'll have a look at it as soon as I have time for.

How about my other question about modulation wheel messages? This was another issue to question Origin KBs usefulness as a MIDI controller... Same thing is in fact with ribbon controller, it's not sending CC with simply increasing/decreasing values but similarly two messages one after another.

(These are little difficult things to explain. If possible, connect your KB to MIDI Monitor or similar app and you'll see clearly what's happening...)

Cheers,
P

Modulation wheel CC is one of 32 CCs which provides a high resolution value : the most significant part of the value is sent using the CC# 1 while the less significant part is sent using CC# 33. So what you should see using MIDI monitor is a list of (CC#1, CC#33 pairs), with the CC#1 showing an increasing/decreasing value. This is the behaviour which is specified in the MIDI standard and MIDI devices should be prepared to deal with these "high resolution" CC pairs.
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JacksonP

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2013, 08:52:46 pm »
Ok, I hope these issues with MIDI stuck notes could be fixed asap cause they are so basic functionality and really should work with this price level instrument. MIDI keyboard should send and respond to MIDI information correctly, right?

About modulation wheel and ribbon messages: I think it's good to know it's about high res MIDI. Bad news is that so few midi instruments respond to it, right? Other thing is that (which I haven't checked) I hope DAWs record this midi correctly and Origin responds correctly when you send it back with sequencer. Any experiences from it from anyone? I remember that I tried to midi-record Origin with Logic some time ago and there were problems. Now I think there was at least stuck notes but I really don't remember how it was with bender/wheel/ribbon...

One thing is clear: Origin responds normally to normal ("low res") midi information like mod wheel. I've played my Origin KB lot with Virus Polar so this direction MIDI information transmits without trouble.

JacksonP

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2013, 01:33:03 pm »
I did my further experiments with Origin KB and this time I tried to play KB with general level "local off" and route midi back to Origin. While there's relatively few stuck notes, it has problems. (And as you know, for real usage this must work 100%. On stage there can't be stuck notes).

I recorded all midi events with MIDI Monitor app and here's what happened:

Everything was fine quite a while, I could play both Origin itself and Virus without problems. Suddenly there was stuck note and in fact every note after that was also stuck note. MIDI Monitor revealed the obvious reason: Origin KB somehow generated Hold pedal message with value 127. This is strange because I had no any pedal(s) connected.

So there's some obvious bugs with MIDI out handling. As said earlier Origin seems to deal perfectly with incoming midi.

I continue my further MIDI tests and it would be great if other Origin KB users could do the same. Hopefully this helps solving the problem. As I said earlier, IMO this is so basic functionality that it should be at highest place of bug fix list.


____________

And here's little more about (system level) "local on" MIDI problematics:

Midi stuck notes are most obvious and most easily re-created in multi presets. And (at least in my Origin KB) you'll have the for sure if those active zones overlap each other. Let's say you have a multi with four zones active with midi channels 1,2,3 and 4. If play just one note and record it with MIDI Monitor this is what I see: four Note on messages (ch 1,2,3,4) but just one note off message (ch 1). And this happens every time. There are other strange midi events but this is the most obvious case.

On the other hand, till now I haven't managed to generate midi problems in program mode. So if you wanna record your playing to sequencer I'd suggest to use program mode at the moment...
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 02:27:27 pm by JacksonP »

Philippe

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2013, 03:38:51 pm »
And here's little more about (system level) "local on" MIDI problematics:

Midi stuck notes are most obvious and most easily re-created in multi presets. And (at least in my Origin KB) you'll have the for sure if those active zones overlap each other. Let's say you have a multi with four zones active with midi channels 1,2,3 and 4. If play just one note and record it with MIDI Monitor this is what I see: four Note on messages (ch 1,2,3,4) but just one note off message (ch 1). And this happens every time.

Could you send me the preset you're using when you reproduce this NOTE OFF problem?

Thx
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JacksonP

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2013, 05:36:49 pm »
Ok,

I sent you an e-mail with one of those most problematic multis.

One more strange thing to notice:
First I was going to say that make any multi with four active zones and you'll have stuck notes. Then I tried that myself: I made a new multi with four first factory presets, first pgm with Zone A with ch1 and preset #0000, 2nd pgm with Zone B with ch2 and preset #0001 etc. And guess what? No stuck notes, at least within few minutes of (hard, fast) playing.

Then I tried a new thing. I recreated same multi preset, which makes stuck notes from the very first note and which I sent to you, from empty multi preset: I placed same presets and made all those settings to match the original. And now what? This new one does not make stuck notes like the original..   

Quite strange, isn't it?   ???

P.S. I really appreciate your continuing work for improving this great synth!
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 05:38:41 pm by JacksonP »

JacksonP

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 01:19:50 pm »
Hi Philippe,

While people are still asking for new modules and templates and there's perhaps little hope for new OS some day, I'd like to know how are our chances to have these obvious MIDI malfunctions fixed? Personally I am a kind of a user who is happy with Origin's current set of features or modules etc.

Anyway I bought my Origin keyboard with an idea to use it to control other synths as well, but I found out that MIDI outs does not work flawlessly. This is IMO something that should be fixed, no matter what are future plans for Origin.

Now this thread is almost a year old and still waiting...

emilshere

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Re: Origin KB as MIDI controller
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 06:36:17 pm »
I'm having the same issue. Phillipe, please address this. I spent three thousand dollars on a machine that cannot send midi correctly? This is just not acceptable. I need to control my ipad synths and I am also getting stuck notes. Thanks.

 

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