controller scaling

[reedman]

Hi,

I playing the MM demo with a MIDI wind controller, attaching continuous controllers works great.

I wondered if there was a way to scale CCs?

reed

[Elhardt]

This seems to be an MMV limitation which makes MMV almost useless for use with external midi gear for realtime expression.

The only want I can see that it can be done is indirectly, and it will only work for modules with modulation inputs to the parameters you might want to control.  You're out of luck if you want to control a parameter with no mod input for it.  What I'm going to try to do to solve the same problem is connect some kind of MMV voltage source (like an envelope put in hold mode always putting out a high signal) into a mixer, then the output of the mixer goes into the mod input into the module/function you want to control.  Because there is no scaling, the mixer knob would go from 0 to 100%, but you can scale that with the mod input nut on the module you're controlling.

-Elhardt

[reedman]

Elhardt - Thanks for the info.

My hope was to do the scaling on the synth side at the patch rather than the global level. It's easy enough to use Plogue Bidule (for instance) to scale data before it gets to the synth.  

From my perspective as a wind controller player, there's a couple of things with continuous controllers that could be handled a bit differently to make the virtual Mg work an ideal sound source.

reed

[Elhardt]

The possible problem with scaling from the synth side is the stepping/zipper noise you might get.  If you want a knob to only move 1/4 its distance for example, you'd only be using 32 values for that range.  If you could scale on the Arturia side, you would have 128 values covering the same distance.  MMV doesn't appear to smooth midi data, so you'll probably get obvious stepping.

-Elhardt

[reedman]

Audible zippering would be unacceptable. I guess there's smoothing routines to help solve this and would expect a decreased range to have the same granularity as full range.

I don't know how hard it is to change how controller data is processed - maybe it's cost prohibitive. I believe optimizing for wind controller use would increase the potential market and would help users of any controller create more expressive music.

[reedman]

Audible zippering would be unacceptable. I guess there's smoothing routines to help solve this and would expect a decreased range to have the same granularity as full range.

I don't know how hard it is to change how controller data is processed - maybe it's cost prohibitive. I believe optimizing for wind controller use would increase the potential market and would help users of any controller create more expressive music.

[ultrasonyk]

advanced midi controllers can do this internally

like my Behringer BCR2000. up to 14bit resolution scaling on
faders and rotary knobs (that's about 16000 steps per CC afaik)

[HerrFrey]

@ultrasonic:

How can I get a 14 bit midi fader/knob resolution for external midi-controllers?

I own the behringer bcf 2000 controller, too. Theoretically, like you said, it's possible to have 14 bit resolution for the endless encoders and faders. I installed "BC Manager". It's a very good tool to change BCF-settings and presets, much better than behringers "bcedit"-prog.
So, I changed the knob values to 16383 and tried to have 14-bit absolute or relative value changing, but it doesn't work with MgModularV.

For exsample knob-tweaking of filtersweeps are still 7-bit rough, the level jumps between the cutoff-values sounds still like typical 127 midi steps.

Does anyone know a solution for a higher midi resolution? Or is it not possible generally?

[Phil999]

I can only do it with Cubase. Cubase's Generic Remote Device option, to be precise. But I see in MMV 2.5 that there is a checkbox for NRPN when you assign a parameter. So it should be possible standalone.

I have both BC's, and they are a good team. I would advise you to get the BCR. It's much better suited for synths, you won't regret it. With the BCF you can focus on levels and sends, and use the BCR for plugins.

There are very smooth filter sweeps possible with 14 bit. Concerning the BCF, 16383 steps is most certainly too much for the fader's own resolution. I don't expect them to be higher than 1024. Different are the encoders. I think there is no limit in resolution, theoretically you could go to the max. Still I would advise you to use not more than 1500 steps, unless the application demands special values. As a side note, it is even possible to program each encoder so specifically that you can display the exact frequencies of an equaliser. The BC display is able to display 4 digits. Values above 10 kHz will be cut in the display.

It is about to find the right balance between finer resolution and usability. I would experiment with the BCF's encoders, and try to get it working with the MMV. In BC Manager you can easily assign different speeds to an encoder, so you can maintain a certain amount of smoothness without having to rotate a dozen times from min to max. The faders should work with 1024 steps, but I actually don't know. Maybe start with 512 or 256, and see how far it goes.

[HerrFrey]

@Phil:

Thank you for your answer. Excuse my english, I hope it's understandable, what I try to explain:

I know there is a NRPN-Checkbox in MMV. In standalone-mode I checked what you suggested. But unfortunately it doesn't help. The only result is:
I see in the BC display value changes like "...5083, 5084, 5085,..." and so on, till 16383, but I always hear just every 127 steps a frequency change and this change is not soft, it' sounds still 7-bit-like.
The only effect is: I have to turn the BCF-encoder knob many times more, but the precision and sonic result is the same like 7-Bit.
By the way: it makes no difference, if I choose CC-controller or NRPN-Controller for 14 bit resolution. Same result.

As you know, when you put the mouse-cursor above a knob of Mg Modular, like "cutoff", on MMV a small window appears, where the acutall frequenzy-value is listet and refreshed during tweaking. So, when I turn the encoder, the values change in fine resoluted 16383 steps on BC display, but on the small Mg window, the frequency-value changes in a rough way, only every 127 steps - and you hear a value-jump. While BC dsiplay counts exactly every 16383 step, the Mg-window just shows 363.78Hz and after 127 steps it jumps noticable to a value of 426.77Hz, for example.

I guess, normaly, with 14 bit, you should see in the Mg value-window a finer frequenzy actualisation, coresponding to the high resolution steps on BC's display?

On BC-Manager, I selected:
- Type: nrpn
- Channel: 1
- NRPN: 0 ($00 $00)
- Value 1: 0
- Value 2: 16383
- Mode: Absolute (14 bit)

When I select another mode, like "relative 14 bit; 2's complement", the knob in MMV reacts in a strange way: it jumps just from 0 to the highest frequenzy.
The result of "Relative 14 bit; binary offset" is: the knob is staying in the middle-setting and when I turn the BCF-encoder it jumps alway back in the middle-Value of MMV.

--

Where do I have to set the 1024 resolutin steps in BC Manager for encoders and faders? It's the "Value 2"-knob on the "Standard output"-page in B-Controll, or am I wrong?
I'm asking, bevause I'm a bit confused, because on the "general"-page next to the 4 resolution knobs, there you can set the value too.

[Phil999]

value 1 is for the minimum value of the plugin parameter, and value 2 for the maximum. That's how you can display exact frequencies of an EQ plugin, you set the min to 125 and the max to 2000, and the BC will display the values in Hertz.
In your case you should try with value 1 = 0 and value 2 = 512, then increase value 2 if desired. Your other settings are correct, maybe try with NRPN: 0 ($00 $01), that's the lowest number I have in my BCR. Mode is Absolute (14 bits).

Let us know if it works, it seems to me you are very close. A MIDI checker/analyser tool is also useful to test controllers.

[HerrFrey]

Hi Phil,

thank you. I tried this with exactly the same settings you wrote abouve. I did it on BCmanagers standart ouput-page.

The result is: after many turnarounds of the BC-encoder, MMV's filter knob turns very slowly till it reaches a value of 32.60 Hz and when BCF's display reached a count of "512".
Frustrating is: when I use encoder #2, which is configured with normal 7-bit CC127 default-settings, MMV-knobs behave like they should: they slide from 0 to highest value, but with this damn, noticable 7-bit leveljumps. *sigh*.

Changing the "Value"-setting on "General"-page has no effect. For example a value of 64 or 16383 causes the same knob behaviour as described above.

In BCL-Editor, when I go to "Load selected preset", I get this:

$rev F1 ; Firmware 1.10; BC Manager 2.1.2
$preset
  .name 'test_jf (all controlls) '
  .snapshot off
  .request off
  .egroups 4
  .fkeys on
  .lock off
  .init
$encoder 1
  .easypar NRPN 1 1 0 512 absolute/14
  .showvalue on
  .mode 12dot
  .resolution 96 96 96 96
  .default 0
$encoder 2
  .easypar CC 1 2 0 127 absolute
  .showvalue on
  .mode 12dot
  .resolution 96 96 96 96
  .default 0

...


So, the selected encoder in my test Preset (#9) seems to be configured, like you said.

Because I'm a newbee to this kind of midi-contoller, I don't understand enough of it. For example, I don't know, should I save the presets as SysEx-Files? At session ending I saved them as .bc2-file.
Or should I change setting in other menues of BCmanager? Perhaps "custom output"?

@Phil: How do you connect your BCF2000 to PC? Via Midi or USB? Does this perhaps has influence on 14 bit resolution? I use BCF in U1 USB-mode.

[Phil999]

you are on the right track. I cannot track down where the error is in your configuration. Starting several times from scratch (empty BCF preset), and you should succeed. Good luck.

BC Manager with its numerous windows can also be a bit confusing. I have the small main window, B-Controls, Presets, and Layout windows opened. Saving configurations is sysex, but I guess bc2 and text works as well, I have never tried it.

[HerrFrey]

Ok, I will keep trying. But did you recognize my last question?

How do you connect your BCF2000 to PC? Via Midi or USB? Does this perhaps has influence on 14 bit resolution? I use BCF in U1 USB-mode.

[Phil999]

U1 should be good. I have U1 on both BCR and BCF.

Before the Behringer USB-driver for x64 came out, I was running one BC via MIDI, and it worked exactly the same. I think it does not matter.