Author Topic: PETITION FOR INITIAL BRILLIANCE : put your signature there (Read 13851 times)

omissis · « **on:** May 18, 2005, 01:25:39 am »

Hi all
Many of you already got a pm from me but now I want to make this public : by comparing the original Yamaha CS-80 and the CS-80V I noted a fundamental thing:

The CS-80 "INITIAL BRILLIANCE" slider ( first green slider on "Touch Response" section at the end of each synth line ) really affects the Attack Level in the Filter's envelope, while on CS-80V this affects just the Cutoff level!!!!
:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

This is not a little difference because on CS-80 this kind of velocity gives a completely different blend, much similar to the "Accent" in TB-303 than to a simple filter velocity action and this you can note in the presets which have a completely different behaviour .

Actually CS-80V's IB acts just on the Cutoff level and this lets the synth resemble to any other synthesizer out there...understand this is not a matter about angels' sex , this is about how a CS-80 really should sound . Xavier actually feels restrained in doing this because this could damage the Sounddesigners' presets, so I wrote to them in order to get their feedback....anyway anyway I make the proposal to all CS-80V users to build new presets according to this special modification and for free to let them feature as Arturia ones....

:arrow: To whoever feels interested about this please leave a signature or a reply and please write to the guys in order to allow Xavier changing this, all in all when we bought it we were looking for a CS-80, weren't we ?

KHC · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2005, 03:46:08 am »

Hello Max, Fabrice, and Xavier,

I would like to see this change implemented.

Here's a way to do it without causing an international catastrophe:

Install the new CS-80V into a different directory than the original. Give the VST DLL a different name, something like: CS-80V2.

Why do this? Even without this change, there may be enough differences (i.e. oscillator waveforms, ring modulator, etc.) to change the sounds of some user designed presets. Even if there isn't, there's a good chance that automated tweaking of some controls -- in hosts like Cubase -- may not sound the same. This could wreck a production!

Major VST updates -- that overwrite the original and change some original functionality -- have resulted in some very unplesant experiences. Although Arturia updates have never been responsible for any of these. :wink:

Please accept my best wishes,

KHC

.

omissis · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2005, 05:12:26 am »

Hi KHC
Thx fr your support!

Here's what I wrote on KVR

Quote from: "omissis"

Hey , it's a good idea to switch from a "faithful" behavior to a more "Arturian" behaviour! We could save the presets as well and at the same time change the behaviour of the synth....a solution could be to have the "Arturia" or "CS-80V" writing to be enlighted when the "realistic" option is active or , simplier, to allow a new switch on the GUI ( if is there room enough.......)

Arturia guys still know that I would be happy even with it being a paid update!!!
M

Please keep on supporting

bg · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2005, 10:43:51 am »

Quote from: "omissis"

The CS-80 "INITIAL BRILLIANCE" slider ( first green slider on "Touch Response" section at the end of each synth line ) really affects the Attack Level in the Filter's envelope, while on CS-80V this affects just the Cutoff level!!!!

I appreciate this investigation. Question: What about "AFTER BRILLIANCE"? How is it supposed to be routed, and is it routed correctly?

bg · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2005, 11:08:35 am »

Max, how did you discover this about the Initial Brilliance being routed incorrectly? The original CS-80 manual is vague on this point, explaining the function of the Initial Brilliance slider in musical, rather than technical, terms.

Old Crow's excellent website was not specific as to exactly where the control voltage is sent, though I'm sure he knows! Following is a quote:

http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/synth/yamaha/cs80/tour.html
quote:
For each synthesizer section, there are a pair of 'initial' and 'after' response controls. Initial Brilliance routes a variable level of control voltage from the initial key velocity detection circuits to the high-pass/low-pass VCF pair to achieve a timbre response change, while the Initial Level routes a variable level of control voltage to the VCA to control a given key's volume level in proportion to the key strike velocity. The After(touch) Brilliance and After(touch) Level do the same thing based on key pressure after the note is played and held down. These controls are among the most important in defining "the sound" of a CS machine.
end quote

Please understand I'm not doubting your findings, just curious. At any rate, apparently Fab and Xavier agree with your conclusion.

omissis · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2005, 12:03:20 pm »

Hi bg

I played sometimes a CS-80 in the past and I have so many recordings featuring it (all Vangelis, including the thing never published and UK, Cozy Powell, Schulze etc etc :wink: !!)that I almost developed an "ear" for the CSs

, this extends to CS-60 too which has literally a basic mono aftertouch but the combination of a sensible keyboard with the very particular "analog" aftertouch makes it act with a strange behaviour, a sort of Velocity and Aftertouch melted together...I had this doubt from the beginning and I had the prove of this when I tried to build the original presets again, while working on the BASS preset....I said "Let's try!!" then I linked AL to velocity via Matrix and I suddendly got that response...Xavier explained me it was a strange, "analog" way of implementing the velocity...the original IB had a little AD enelope which was basically linked to the Aftertouch and superimposed to the main Filt env....so the IB is nothing more than an Envelope amount linked to keyboard voltage....you could retriggerit also by aftertouching the key...complex but efficient in facts !!!!...I think that things are not this hard in the digital domain so an additional AD is not a necessary thing :wink:

omissis · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2005, 12:06:53 pm »

...just for the record: no thanks to any of unhelpful and self-satisfied guys at the CS-80 group...I had to dig all this by myself...and without a CS-80 under my hands :evil: :!:

bg · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2005, 12:40:19 pm »

I know. Thanks for your tenacity.

bg · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2005, 01:05:59 pm »

Can someone with more smarts than me determine the facts from these docs?

http://bermuda.ucd.ie/bridge/cs80.html

omissis · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2005, 01:23:17 pm »

What do you need to be explained about? Circuits? Diagrams? Wirings? User Manual ? What? I have a copy of a User Manual in JPG format, send me an email and I will send it to you !!!

poropat · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2005, 06:16:30 pm »

I didn't know about this detail on CS80 (I never played a real one).

So it's an important detail because it could change how work
factory presets.
So now Xavier is working on chorus, shape of VCO, free running
etc... it means all user preset won't sound the same anyway.
The most important is the CS80V behaviour could be as closed
as possible with the original, so I would like this feature could be
implemented.

The realistic option, as Omissis said would be good too.

bg · « **Reply #11 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:34:55 pm »

Quote from: "omissis"

What do you need to be explained about? Circuits? Diagrams? Wirings? User Manual ? What? I have a copy of a User Manual in JPG format, send me an email and I will send it to you !!!

I have the 3-part pdf user manual (scans), which I referenced earlier to explain proper Ribbon behavior in Sustain Mode I/II, and to answer your question on the CS-80 group whether Tremolo can function independently of Chorus. [Yes, it can.] Again, if this is the User Manual you're referring to, I don't see where it explains exactly what the Initial Brilliance slider does other than make the sound "brighter." I suggested the technical docs as they might show conclusively where the Initial Brilliance control voltage is actually routed to.

bg · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2005, 07:56:35 pm »

Max, I tried your theory. I turned I-B off and used the matrix to route velocity to VCF AL. I hear what you're talking about; it does have a certain expressive sound that is similiar to what I hear in the RLMusic mp3's. I love those demos! I found a problem with this routing, though. When Attack (not AL) is zero, velocity has no effect, or is unpredictable.

omissis · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:54:24 am »

HI bg
The user manual really doesn't explain how velocity is routed, and we can't intend the IB as a traditional velocity to filter action...it was something of a primitive implementation of it...don't forget it was the first polyphonic EVER to have velocity and aftertouch....sadly I think you can't guess how the signal is routed with the service manual unless you're very skilled within electronic circuitation :wink: :wink: !

omissis · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2005, 01:57:52 am »

This message to tell everyone I won't be pushing the guys more....I understand they're almost always in audition to get feedback and better their products but I realised I'm a bit too " active ", too enough to be annoying....let the guys do the job and ,more quietly l :wink: let's keep on feedbacking to let them have their ball for conquering the virtual instruments market...
Cheers